Talk:Tractor-Tow OXZ - Revision history

Reval: Version 1.1 renders the entire discussion academic, obviating any further need for its retention.

2026-06-12T08:47:57Z

Version 1.1 renders the entire discussion academic, obviating any further need for its retention.

Phkb at 11:55, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T11:55:46Z

Reval at 10:31, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T10:31:02Z

Phkb at 10:01, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T10:01:10Z

Reval at 09:12, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T09:12:15Z

Phkb at 06:38, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T06:38:23Z

Reval: response to phkb

2026-06-09T04:45:21Z

response to phkb

Phkb at 04:13, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T04:13:44Z

Reval at 03:27, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T03:27:58Z

Reval at 03:11, 9 June 2026

2026-06-09T03:11:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:47, 12 June 2026
Line 1:		Line 1:
−	~~You need to mark your OXP as conflicting with [[Towbar]] ("oolite.oxp.Norby.Towbar")~~

−	~~phkb 2026-06-08 09:56:47 (AEST)~~
−
−
−	Exactly how does Tractor-Tow 'conflict' with Towbar? (not that I've ever checked out Towbar, nor have any intention to). Does Towbar lock onto and tractor _neutralized_ ships? Is the *[[NPB Neutralizer OXZ\|'''NPB Neutralizer''']] required in order to use Towbar?
−
−	~~''IF'' there is such a conflict, why is it for me to mark my OXP as conflicting, and not Norby as conflicting with mine?~~
−
−	~~<small>* Now marked as a <u>dependency</u> in manifest.plist.</small>~~
−
−	~~[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 02:37, 9 June 2026 (BST)~~
−
−
−	The "towbar" in the Towbar OXP cannot tow your "neutralised" ships. Your Tractor-Tow cannot tow derelict ships (which is what Towbar will work with), because they are not "neutralised". Both OXPs have similar functionality, and would create a potentially confusing experience for the player, working out which towing system to use for the type of ship in front of them. The safest thing to do to prevent that confusion is to flag them as incompatible.
−
−	~~As for why your OXP should flag the incompatibility, it's because yours is the newest of the two, and because you, as the author, are around and able to make the change.~~
−
−	~~While we're discussing changes, the following items need to be addressed/removed:~~
−
−	~~In your "equipment.plist" you have:~~
−	~~// restrict to aft facing~~
−	~~weapon_flags = "WF_MOUNT_AFT"; // NOT documented!~~
−
−	That option doesn't do anything. There is no "weapon_flags" in equipment.list. I don't know where this came from but it certainly didn't come from the documentation. It should be removed so as not to cause confusion for anyone looking at your source code in future.
−
−	~~In your "tt_equipment_conditions.js" file you have:~~
−	~~// Only check on purchase or installation~~
−	~~if (context == "purchase" \|\| context == "install") {~~
−
−	~~There is no "install" context. Oolite will never send "install" as a context. Only "purchase" is valid here for your purposes. This again should be removed so as not to cause future confusion.~~
−
−	~~phkb 2026-06-09 14:07:00 (AEST)~~
−
−
−	Thanks. Yes, I had my doubts about those too. Will amend the relevant files tonight. I am happy to indicate a possible 'functionality' conflict with Towbar, provided that the ''way'' I do it does not prevent '''Tractor-Tow''' OXZ from being loaded in favour of Norby's. Offhand, I cannot think of a way to accomplish this that does not sacrifice mine (using manifest.plist it certainly would).
−
−	~~[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 05:45, 9 June 2026 (BST)~~
−
−
−	There is no other way to do it except with the manifest conflict_oxps item. Any other method would have to rely on the player reading some information somewhere and understanding the differences between both mods. But where would they see that?
−
−	You are attempting to add an OXP into a sea of existing mods. It is your responsibility to do the due diligence to ensure basic compatibility with OXP's that clearly have similar functionality. Failing that, I would have thought you would at least accept the direction of someone who has vastly more experience in these matters than you do.
−
−	Given that you obviously don't trust my views, I have posted a generalised question on the BB to see what the rest of the community feels about which OXP should have the conflict message: a pre-existing older one, or the newer one. I hope that will at least give some idea on which path is the correct one.
−
−	~~phkb 2026-06-09 16:37:00 (AEST)~~
−
−
−	~~It is not a matter of 'distrust' of anyone's views, but one of simple difference of philosophy and opinion.~~
−
−	While I fully acknowledge your wider experience in the Oolite arena, I must respectfully disagree with the premise that I owe anyone due diligence regarding compatibility. I develop OXPs primarily for my own entertainment and personal setup. As long as my modifications function cohesively within my own installation and 'play nicely' with all ''my'' other OXPs and those of others that I actually use, that is the only metric of success I recognize. I have no interest in broader community compatibility or consensus, as my goal for the most part is personal satisfaction and challenge.
−
−	The rest - namely overall enjoyment among users of my OXPs - is purely incidental. I try to make them work; I will respond positively to criticisms and suggestions for improvement; but I do not in general concern myself with OXPs that are not my own. Life is too short to bother about such things.
−
−	~~[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 10:12, 9 June 2026 (BST)~~
−
−
−	I hope that you can at least appreciate the other side of this. You may not care about any other OXPs, but some of us do. Players will play with more than just your OXPs, and come to the bulletin board looking for answers to issues they’ve experienced. Some of us are trying to make Oolite a welcoming game for everyone, which means trying to solve those compatibility issues players might have. Taking an “I only care about my OXPs” view makes the task of general OXP support a real chore. Even now, having this drawn out disagreement is raising my blood pressure, causing me to lose sleep and making me want to throw in the towel with everything Oolite. So understand there are flow on effects for your approach.
−
−	I don’t want to end up in the position I was with your Goods Containers and Cargo Space refit, where your implementation was flawed and players were losing cargo and in game credits, and you weren’t here to answer the questions. That sort of weird issue, that’s hard to explain and debug, discredits the entire game. Players feel they can’t trust the game or the mods, and players will leave. That’s the future I’m looking at, and at the moment it’s feeling more and more likely.
−
−	~~phkb 2026-06-09 19:59:07 (AEST)~~
−
−
−	While I sympathize with what is obviously becoming a burden (and probably an excessive workload), I believe you are blowing this tiny matter out of all proportion: So there is another OXP called Towbar; it is an older OXP than Tractor-Tow; you believe that it ''might'' conflict in some minor way as regards general functionality. Until evidence of a <u>real incompatibility</u> between the two mods is uncovered or observed, I don't see that the issue merits further action.
−
−	Should loading and testing Towbar ''along with'' Tractor-Tow reveal a serious conflict, I will be more than glad to reconsider placing the conflict_oxps line in my manifest.plist. I do not at present have time to perform an adequate test of the two OXPs together (yes, I ''do'' - unlike some I could name - have a life apart from Oolite).
−
−	~~So let's just see what emerges.~~
−
−	~~[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 11:31, 9 June 2026 (BST)~~
−
−
−	~~This will be the last time I interact with you. I've added your expansion to the list. I will be standing down from my duties on the expansion pack manager. Good bye.~~
−
−	~~phkb 2026-06-09 21:54:00 (AEST)~~

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:55, 9 June 2026
Line 71:		Line 71:

	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 11:31, 9 June 2026 (BST)		[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 11:31, 9 June 2026 (BST)
		+
		+
		+	This will be the last time I interact with you. I've added your expansion to the list. I will be standing down from my duties on the expansion pack manager. Good bye.
		+
		+	phkb 2026-06-09 21:54:00 (AEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:31, 9 June 2026
Line 62:		Line 62:

	phkb 2026-06-09 19:59:07 (AEST)		phkb 2026-06-09 19:59:07 (AEST)
		+
		+
		+	While I sympathize with what is obviously becoming a burden (and probably an excessive workload), I believe you are blowing this tiny matter out of all proportion: So there is another OXP called Towbar; it is an older OXP than Tractor-Tow; you believe that it ''might'' conflict in some minor way as regards general functionality. Until evidence of a <u>real incompatibility</u> between the two mods is uncovered or observed, I don't see that the issue merits further action.
		+
		+	Should loading and testing Towbar ''along with'' Tractor-Tow reveal a serious conflict, I will be more than glad to reconsider placing the conflict_oxps line in my manifest.plist. I do not at present have time to perform an adequate test of the two OXPs together (yes, I ''do'' - unlike some I could name - have a life apart from Oolite).
		+
		+	So let's just see what emerges.
		+
		+	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 11:31, 9 June 2026 (BST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:01, 9 June 2026
Line 55:		Line 55:

	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 10:12, 9 June 2026 (BST)		[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 10:12, 9 June 2026 (BST)
		+
		+
		+	I hope that you can at least appreciate the other side of this. You may not care about any other OXPs, but some of us do. Players will play with more than just your OXPs, and come to the bulletin board looking for answers to issues they’ve experienced. Some of us are trying to make Oolite a welcoming game for everyone, which means trying to solve those compatibility issues players might have. Taking an “I only care about my OXPs” view makes the task of general OXP support a real chore. Even now, having this drawn out disagreement is raising my blood pressure, causing me to lose sleep and making me want to throw in the towel with everything Oolite. So understand there are flow on effects for your approach.
		+
		+	I don’t want to end up in the position I was with your Goods Containers and Cargo Space refit, where your implementation was flawed and players were losing cargo and in game credits, and you weren’t here to answer the questions. That sort of weird issue, that’s hard to explain and debug, discredits the entire game. Players feel they can’t trust the game or the mods, and players will leave. That’s the future I’m looking at, and at the moment it’s feeling more and more likely.
		+
		+	phkb 2026-06-09 19:59:07 (AEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:12, 9 June 2026
Line 46:		Line 46:

	phkb 2026-06-09 16:37:00 (AEST)		phkb 2026-06-09 16:37:00 (AEST)
		+
		+
		+	It is not a matter of 'distrust' of anyone's views, but one of simple difference of philosophy and opinion.
		+
		+	While I fully acknowledge your wider experience in the Oolite arena, I must respectfully disagree with the premise that I owe anyone due diligence regarding compatibility. I develop OXPs primarily for my own entertainment and personal setup. As long as my modifications function cohesively within my own installation and 'play nicely' with all ''my'' other OXPs and those of others that I actually use, that is the only metric of success I recognize. I have no interest in broader community compatibility or consensus, as my goal for the most part is personal satisfaction and challenge.
		+
		+	The rest - namely overall enjoyment among users of my OXPs - is purely incidental. I try to make them work; I will respond positively to criticisms and suggestions for improvement; but I do not in general concern myself with OXPs that are not my own. Life is too short to bother about such things.
		+
		+	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 10:12, 9 June 2026 (BST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:38, 9 June 2026
Line 37:		Line 37:

	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 05:45, 9 June 2026 (BST)		[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 05:45, 9 June 2026 (BST)
		+
		+
		+	There is no other way to do it except with the manifest conflict_oxps item. Any other method would have to rely on the player reading some information somewhere and understanding the differences between both mods. But where would they see that?
		+
		+	You are attempting to add an OXP into a sea of existing mods. It is your responsibility to do the due diligence to ensure basic compatibility with OXP's that clearly have similar functionality. Failing that, I would have thought you would at least accept the direction of someone who has vastly more experience in these matters than you do.
		+
		+	Given that you obviously don't trust my views, I have posted a generalised question on the BB to see what the rest of the community feels about which OXP should have the conflict message: a pre-existing older one, or the newer one. I hope that will at least give some idea on which path is the correct one.
		+
		+	phkb 2026-06-09 16:37:00 (AEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:45, 9 June 2026
Line 32:		Line 32:

	phkb 2026-06-09 14:07:00 (AEST)		phkb 2026-06-09 14:07:00 (AEST)
		+
		+
		+	Thanks. Yes, I had my doubts about those too. Will amend the relevant files tonight. I am happy to indicate a possible 'functionality' conflict with Towbar, provided that the ''way'' I do it does not prevent '''Tractor-Tow''' OXZ from being loaded in favour of Norby's. Offhand, I cannot think of a way to accomplish this that does not sacrifice mine (using manifest.plist it certainly would).
		+
		+	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 05:45, 9 June 2026 (BST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:13, 9 June 2026
Line 11:		Line 11:

	[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 02:37, 9 June 2026 (BST)		[[User:Reval\|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval\|talk]]) 02:37, 9 June 2026 (BST)
		+
		+
		+	The "towbar" in the Towbar OXP cannot tow your "neutralised" ships. Your Tractor-Tow cannot tow derelict ships (which is what Towbar will work with), because they are not "neutralised". Both OXPs have similar functionality, and would create a potentially confusing experience for the player, working out which towing system to use for the type of ship in front of them. The safest thing to do to prevent that confusion is to flag them as incompatible.
		+
		+	As for why your OXP should flag the incompatibility, it's because yours is the newest of the two, and because you, as the author, are around and able to make the change.
		+
		+	While we're discussing changes, the following items need to be addressed/removed:
		+
		+	In your "equipment.plist" you have:
		+	// restrict to aft facing
		+	weapon_flags = "WF_MOUNT_AFT"; // NOT documented!
		+
		+	That option doesn't do anything. There is no "weapon_flags" in equipment.list. I don't know where this came from but it certainly didn't come from the documentation. It should be removed so as not to cause confusion for anyone looking at your source code in future.
		+
		+	In your "tt_equipment_conditions.js" file you have:
		+	// Only check on purchase or installation
		+	if (context == "purchase" \|\| context == "install") {
		+
		+	There is no "install" context. Oolite will never send "install" as a context. Only "purchase" is valid here for your purposes. This again should be removed so as not to cause future confusion.
		+
		+	phkb 2026-06-09 14:07:00 (AEST)

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
-Exactly how does Tractor-Tow 'conflict' with Towbar? (not that I've ever checked out Towbar, nor have any intention to). Does Towbar lock onto and tractor _neutralized_ ships? Is the [[NPB Neutralizer OXZ|'''NPB Neutralizer''']] required in order to use Towbar?
+Exactly how does Tractor-Tow 'conflict' with Towbar? (not that I've ever checked out Towbar, nor have any intention to). Does Towbar lock onto and tractor _neutralized_ ships? Is the *[[NPB Neutralizer OXZ|'''NPB Neutralizer''']] required in order to use Towbar?
 ''IF'' there is such a conflict, why is it for me to mark my OXP as conflicting, and not Norby as conflicting with mine?
 [[User:Reval|Reval]] ([[User talk:Reval|talk]]) 02:37, 9 June 2026 (BST)